Penn State’s College Democrats and College Republicans brought together two big names in American politics Tuesday for their annual Great Debate. Political observers who like some laughs mixed in with serious discussion struck gold with a debate between Sean Spicer and Howard Dean.

Spicer served as the White House Press Secretary briefly at the beginning of Donald Trump’s presidency. A former presidential candidate, Dean was the governor of Vermont from 1991 to 2003 and later served as the chair of the Democratic National Committee from 2005 to 2009. The two politicians were brought to the at-capacity Freeman Auditorium in the HUB to debate on the topic: “Is perception reality? The role of media in shaping a partisan climate.”

The two highly public figures were upbeat and funny all night, cracking jokes on their way to serious political points throughout the debate.

Dean kicked off the debate, answering a question about whether the media has become more partisan in recent years. Dean argued that, in the United States, freedom of speech extends to limits that are unseen in some parts of the world.

“Free speech and an independent press is the only and most important protection against tyranny. Without [the media], we in the political world will not be held accountable,” Dean said. But, he added, the media has flaws just like politicians, and it’s important to understand these flaws.

“I believe wholeheartedly that it is fundamental for a democracy to have a free press,” Spicer added.

Spicer said he has no problem with any media outlet writing a story on just about anything. He underscored, though, that he also has the right to defend himself and the facts. He said many journalists he’d come to respect slipped into the trap of trying to be first to a story and ignoring the facts.

“I think people confuse free speech with the freedom to do whatever you want,” the former governor responded.

When it came to the media’s treatment of Donald Trump, Spicer said that the president “is who he is.” The president’s former press secretary said Trump is not going to change. He also said Trump’s coverage in the media hasn’t been very objective, but that some reporters have been fair and have avoided rushing to judgement.

Dean said the media has fallen for the fact that Donald Trump is a TV star. Trump’s command of the media, for example, has kept the agenda to what the president wants to talk about.

“I think some in the media are getting better about it, and some are not,” Dean said. He argued that we should wonder what it is inside of ourselves that leads to such a strong reaction to Trump.

Penn State Vice President for Student Affairs Damon Sims, who moderated the discussion, asked if the two parties treat the media in different ways. This question marked the point in the debate where Dean and Spicer began to diverge.

“For the first time, the people who were elected don’t look like me; they look like the electorate,” Dean said.

He added that the recent wave of new Democratic congressional election victories reflects the next generation taking hold of politics, and believes this trend will push the country forward. Spicer argued Trump was able to tap into traditionally blue states in 2016, and that Republicans must figure out how to do that again in the future.

“We realized that we can have a level of discourse and conversation without being a jerk,” Spicer said.

Dean, on the other hand, believes partisanship is a “bad thing for the country.” Dean pointed to the Tea Party and the far-left Democrats, who he said essentially hold the system hostage and disintegrate the middle. In a nation of 310 million people, Dean said, vicious ideological fights don’t truly reflect the population.

When it comes to negative media coverage, Dean doesn’t believe negative media coverage is necessarily as damaging as many believe it is. He said the coverage of his infamous “scream” speech wasn’t what killed his presidential run, but that disorganization and inadequate governing experience ended his chances.

Spicer said seeing Melissa McCarthy play him on Saturday Night Live “is a very surreal experience.” He said they must be able to laugh at themselves and that he recognized he could be a better person and professional by learning from his mistakes.

Both sides then took questions from the audience, touching on everything from “fake news” on Facebook to media coverage from cable news networks. Spicer noted the White House press corps members who have recently engaged in altercations with press secretaries have been hired as TV commentators. He argued that it was a bad place to be in as a country.

Dean added that short-term incentives are more powerful than long-term incentives at the moment. He pointed to click-bait articles that increase page views, quarterly corporate earnings reports, and even term lengths.